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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM on national news!! |
How annoying are news people - its been called a charity run and some heli pilot has said the organisers should be shot - we all know every safety effort is in place and everyone out there is experienced with gear to cope with a night on fells - Joe public are gonna love any misreporting on this!!
Be safe all X |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| Twats |
Oh yes how annoying, very annoying that the entire cumbrian mountain rescue team are spending Saturday night fighting 80 mile an hour winds, torrential rain and freezing conditions while three search and rescue helicopters at 10,000 pounds an hour of taxpayers money,along with countless police and emergency services are all looking for a bunch of idiots that thought it would be clever to set out on mass to race in these conditions. Yes it is very annoying is it not.....bloomin bunch of twats that think they can outwit the weather and the mountains. But then again maybe somebody will die and you can all have an extra adrenalin rush. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| Grrrr |
Who the h*ll are you, you f*****g t*at.
I completed the first day today, and did so because myself and my partner are competent in the hills, and know how to look afer ourselves. granted, some may not hav had the necessary experience and that puts other at risk, but the vast majority of people out there are extremely skilled, and the competitor base looks out for each other, and supports themselves, plus non-competitors they meet out on the hills.
So don\'t you start slagging me off you w****r, you know nothing about me or what motivates me, what my skills and experience levels are so keep it shut with your pointless, unhelpful attitude, or else next time you open your mouth to shout off, you may find it being shut for you. |
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 Dave Wilby
Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| really scared |
Oh I am really really scared, big sweaty sports man is going to hit me. It\'s my F***ing taxpayer money thats picking you idiots of the side of the mountain. So as long as you are spending it I have the right to comment on it. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| speculation |
Steven you really are drawing some far reaching conclusions. There is nothing anywhere that states any runners are stranded on the side of any hill yes earlier today a large number had congregated at the slate mine. Let alone helicopters searching.
As to cumbrian Mountain Rescue teams out all night, again I\'m sure you will find the staple diet of many rescue team members is a crack at the OMM - I know few competing this year.
Lastly mountain rescue teams are not funded by tax payers money but rather donations from those that enjoy the hills.
Chill.. |
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 James Thurlow
Cumbria
UK |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| Get a grip |
The emergency services will be glad ofthe chance of inter-agency responding.This is something that we have to train for but rarely get to use, this \"rescue\" will allow the emergency services to tick some boxes for the government and will show that their emergency planning is up to scratch. |
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Danny Kerr
Lanarkshire
UK |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| Common sense should prevail |
Whilst it would have been disappointing to cancel an event that no doubt had seen a massive amount of time and money spent organising it, surely someone would have realised after the adverse weather and flooding this week, and the atrocious forecast for today, that proceeding with this event was plain stupid. And yet reading the organiser\'s postings on this website from the past few days, he seems to have been relishing the prospect - \"Are we going to cancel? - Not a chance!\"
Gross irresponsibility in my view. Do these people not know what conditions can be like up in The Lakes?
And having it in late October was plain stupid too.
Lives could have been lost - possibly may have been by morning - and huge expense and risk to their own safety has been incurred by the rescue and emergency services.
I bet this event doesn\'t take place again! |
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Bob Sykes
Lancashire
UK |
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| Posted 25. Oct, 2008 |
| From my cosy armchair! |
Bob and Steven,
The OMM is an internationally reknowned event with an excellent safety record and superb organisation that\'s been running in the mountains of Britain for decades on the last wkend in October. I am certain it will be back with a vengeance next year.
Part of the ethos is that competitors take responsibility for their own participation and must be prepared to be self sufficient in severe conditions. As responsible adults they have all seen the weather report and made a decision to venture out.
I suspect that the Cumbrian Mountain Rescue team were involved at the planning stage and that the organisers made a balanced decision taking into account both their commitment to the competitors, their enjoyment and safety.
There is risk inherent in all mountain sports; probably not as much risk as you take in other voluntary activities like driving or crossing the road ... although i suspect you\'d hope to be picked up by a very expensive ambulance following an injury, no matter the cost to the taxpayer.
Very much hope all safe.
Nicola |
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 Nicola MacLeod
Midlothian
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Safety |
I\'ve done the OMM 3 times. I wasn\'t there this year because of other commitments, not the weather forecast.
Steven, I don\'t know where you\'re getting your information from - I suspect out of your head, as the BBC report specifically said that there were no helicopters involved.
Bob, the event had it\'s 40th anniversary last year and it\'s had pretty bad weather before now - very cold in Scotland, very wet in Wales, Lakes etc. If you have a look over on the OMM website forum, you\'ll see a posting from a Mountain Rescue member pointing out that 4 of his colleagues were doing the race - does that mean that they were irresponsible? I don\'t think so. I think that the OMM is where people go to learn/practice the sort of self reliance that comes in really handy when you find yourself placed in an uncontrolled situation - from experience I can tell you that among the competitors will be lots of doctors, military and members of the emergency services. I hope that everyone doing the event is OK, there is of course the possibility that someone will get seriously hurt or killed, but in all honesty I\'d rather have spent the night out in the Lakes than in one of our city centers and you don\'t hear a lot of criticism of people going out, getting insensibly drunk and putting themselves at risk there.
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 Jon Brooke
Buckinghamshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| How did you get on the sleepmonsters site? |
Steven. Are you an adventure racer/fell runner or even vaguely involved in outdoor activities? IF not and it doesn\'t seem like you are,how did you find this site and feel as though you had the right to put your stupid thoughts on it? |
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Wendy Gaisford
Cambridgeshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Mike Kelly |
Coming late to this thread, I wonder if this is the same Steven Peel who is
Head of Partnering, Local Government, Education & Regions Sector,Stockport, United Kingdom. If so then maybe there is a hidden agenda in the comments made.
Surely the most important thing is for those involved in this event to arrive home safely.Sure,questions need to be asked of the organisers, which will have included government agencies,but now isn\'t the time for recriminations.
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Mike Kelly
Greater London
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Mike Kelly |
Wendy,
Following up on your question to Steven, there is a link on the BBC news pages to the site. If this is the same Steven I believe it is then he does seem to have interests in outdoor activities.
How extensive that is I am not clear about. |
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Mike Kelly
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| omm |
Surely then if this person has any knowledge of such events, he should have been aware that (as already written in this forum) 1. mountain rescue is funded primarily from donations. 2. Entry to the OMM is very strict and you have to prove your ability that you can cope in the mountains in adverse conditions by doing previous events. All racers have good tents and food etc, to look after themselves, not only that but the camaraderie of these people mean that they will support and help each other in times of adversity (including not only those mountain rescue people who are taking part). andf 3. Its a voluntary event, people have brains and can make their own judgements as to whether to take part, stop or carry on.
Accidents do happen in the mountains and I only hope that the OMM doesn\'t get the flack for it. grrrrr!
:)
I\'m off orienteering in now and yes its raining!!!! |
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Wendy Gaisford
Cambridgeshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Peter Cartledge |
Oh dear, people seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar perhaps. My daughter Louise is participating in the OMM event and I cannot contact her by mobile, may be it\'s full of water or in a dead spot. Does anyone know a telephone number to contact organisers or police for an accurate report of who is safe and who is unaccouted for please? Media reports at present are not helpful.
Thank you very much!
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Peter Cartledge
Shropshire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
Firstly lets hope everyone is safe and well.
The OMM is probably the safest event in the adventure world for this sort of weather to happen to. Everyone is equipped to spend a full night on the hills. Add to this the fact that there is such a volume of people on the hills - I would suspect there are very few pairs which are out there on their own.
As an ex-competitor I would of done what I suspect most other competitors have done. Headed down to low ground, camped and be walking out right now. They will have no idea that the national news has got hold of the story so they won\'t be racing to phone boxes to check in. Peter - mobile reception in that area is very difficult indeed.
Finally here is hoping the OMM is back next year. |
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 Rob Priestley
Strathclyde
uk |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Re:Peter Cartledge |
My husband is also out there and i cannot get intouch with him however i was given a number for Cumbria Police it is 08453300247 they took my details and said they would get back intouch when they find anything. I am still waiting but no news is good news. I hope every one is safe and well. I hope this information helps. |
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yvonne mace
Lancashire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Great Challenge |
To all you bang wagon jumper on type people. I guess you do not go out if it is slightly damp and are of the see you in court mentality.
I did the event, I had a great day out in the mountains, I enjoyed the challenge of picking the right kit, making the right decisions with navigation and the elements. We finished the 1st day with a great run, and were bitterly disappointed that it was called off. Rather than sit and wait for help we \"CHOSE\" to head over the hills home.
So thank you to the organisers for letting me take on this challenge. I will be back for more. |
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 Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
Latest reports from Cumbria Police are that all but 45 athletes are accounted for. This compares with the BBC that says 1,700 are unaccounted for. Thanks to all for support and reassurance. Peter C |
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Peter Cartledge
Shropshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Mobile |
There is no mobile phone signal in the area, so relax. Most of the competitors are completely unaware of the hype the media are kicking up.
1500 people missing.... that must have come from a person sat in an office!!! |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
Wow there are some very mis-informed people using this site at the moment!
Firstly, hope everyone completing gets home safely....we all know how dangerous the M6 is! and secondly.....roll on next year, it will be happening! this is what (experienced) adventure runners / fell racers live for. |
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heather meek
Westmorland
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| In the calm of the day |
Firstly apologies, calling people twats and idiots is stupid. Although in in a crowd of some 2000 there probably are a couple:). In response to questions posted. No I do not work for the government and yes I take part in a great many outdoor pursuits. My primary sport though is sailing and I am also a volunteer lifeboatman. Having came in from checking on my own yacht yesterday that was sitting in the marina being hammered by winds that where pushing all the yachts to 30 degree angle. This was one night that I knew there would be no shouts for the crew as even the dumbest of boaters would not have considered going out in that weather. Even all inshore commercial traffic had headed for for safe anchor well in advance of the predicted storm. This is what spurred my anger, yes mountain rescue are voluntary as I am but what really gets our goat is people that put there lives in danger when the odds stacked against them are so great. You can take all the precautions you want but in conditions such as last nights all it takes is one slip, one flash flood, one strong gust and your gone. In these conditions the chances of this happening are multiplied by a 100. As with any sport you must way up risk versus reward and in this instance the risk was far to great. As for the helicopter, correct they where not out last night as the conditions where so bad they could not take off. They are however in the air today and the crews had all been scrambled and put on standby. I very much hope that all the guys and gals make it down and home safe. If everyone has got away with this one it will be a little miracle. But for future I think the organisers need to put some limits on the type of conditions they are prepared to pit 2000 people against because it is plain that in this instance that the vast majority where unable to cope and could not complete the race causing chaos and very bad press. PS good luck for any further event, and I do support people pushing the limit, just not beyond what is sensible. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
No one enters a race like this without being prepared for dreadful conditions. The BBC likes to dramatise things but let\'s hope everyone turns up unharmed. I agree with the above comment. I\'d far rather be on the fells than on the M6!!
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Paul Dunlop
Please Select
Please Select |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
Its the difference between \'actual risk\' and \'perceived risk\'
Many fell runners yesterday would have known the the actual risk was actually quite low given their experience and kit carried. People that are not experienced fell runners would have seen that the perceived risk was high due to unintentional ignorance.
oh and lets stop the bad language on here! please.... |
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heather meek
Westmorland
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Mike Kelly |
Coming late to this thread, I wonder if this is the same Steven Peel who is
Head of Partnering, Local Government, Education & Regions Sector,Stockport, United Kingdom. If so then maybe there is a hidden agenda in the comments made.
Surely the most important thing is for those involved in this event to arrive home safely.Sure,questions need to be asked of the organisers, which will have included government agencies,but now isn\'t the time for recriminations.
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Mike Kelly
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Risk assessment |
Steven,
you\'re right that it\'s a matter of risk assessment, and that all it takes is one slip etc. However, that is always the case not just on the mountains. I\'ve been first on the scene of a couple of road traffic accidents that required emergency services where it was just one slip...
To be honest though, the bad press is hardly generated by the competitors or the organisers is it?
I\'d suggest that the biggest problem is that the H+S culture we have prevents people from being able to carry out their own risk assessments. What\'s risky for some is not risky for others. We should be able to let people assess and decide for themselves - as many of these competitors did as they decided to come down off the hills.
I would love to do a post-event questionnaire - given the high media exposure and the large number of worried wives (see OMM forum for example) I wonder what the competitors thoughts are? Follow sleepmonsters for the next 2 weeks!
As for me, I\'m in the Middle East, running in 40 degree heat. I\'d much rather be in the Lake District right now! Memories of the Blue Eskimo race at Ullswater in 2001 anyone?
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 Mike Hunting
Greater Manchester
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| taking responsibility |
Some interesting comments, but at present some adventure racers aren\'t doing us any favours - they are coming across as arrogant and with the mentality of \'we can do whatever we want\'. The fact is that the event WAS cancelled, and the organisers knew the likely conditions - therefore, based on those facts, it would seem they made a mistake. As organisers of a race, the risk assessment completed is very different to an individual going out on the hills for a days run, and I wonder whether in this case, their judgement was clouded by the fact that the event has never been cancelled in the past. The fact that the rescue helicopter is now out, and teams are still searching for people suggest in this case, they got it wrong.
And yes, I was at Blue Eskimo in 2001, but one difference was that the weather was good beforehand, it just got much worse overnight. |
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 Jim Godden
Gloucestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Mike Kelly |
For some reason my previous posting reposted. Apologies for the annoyance.
Wendy. I prefaced my comments by saying \"IF\". This may not be the same Steven. Point well taken though.
Anthony, I agree with msny of the points you make. There may well have been some bad judgement calls here but the competitors were fully aware and, dispite that, decided to take part. Whilst I do question whether the event should have gone ahead, especially given it was cancelled so early into the day and communications proved so difficult, in my view OMM shouldnt have to shoulder the responsibility alone for the decisions in this event.
Heather, given the attention this site has been given, this would be a BRILLIANT opportunity to initiate the less informed and maybe bring new members into the fold.
Steven, glad your expanded on your original comments. Makes it less confrontational now.
Still 45+- missing people. Lets hope the last few make it down ok. |
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Mike Kelly
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Competitor\'s Choice |
At long last the BBC have stopped some of there sensationalism and have reported that only approx 40 are unaccounted for.
Amongst all of the criticism of the organisers it should be remembered that no competitor was forced to take part and anyone could have chosen not to compete if they felt the conditions were too extreme for them. I believe that some teams took that decision based upon the forecast and did not even travel.
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KP Hawk
Somerset
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Arrogant |
Jim
Arrogant or well prepared? As you were not there I guess I will say well prepared.
I checked the weather forecast and changed my kit accordingly, I used the map to make informed decisions on route. I personally was ready and happy to camp over night and start the next day.
The decision not to start or to head back to basecamp was always an option.
I did my own risk assessment and was far slower than I could have been. The elite competitors were still putting in times of about 4 hours and seemed happy with the conditions.
I will let others who did not have a similar experience to me judge for themselves what should have happened. I was disappointed it was called off.
I entered the event, I started the event.. Period. No one forced me.
Who\'s fault is it then??? Mine and all mine - no one elses. |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Bad decision |
Anthony, you may have made it through, there are others that made it through. But look at the consequences of last night. Aside from the cost of staging a full blown major incident, whereby every off duty police officer, doctor, fireman ect are called out, the effects on your sport will be felt far beyond this. Public opinion is a very strong thing and you can be guaranteed that a million joe blogs are currently tutting into there coffee and morning papers and telling there wife\'s that you should all be shot. Once this dies down you can guarantee that HSE will be all over you like a plague and that next years event will be so heavily regulated that you will not be able to see the course for all the saint johns ambulance men lining the route. The organisers have to shoulder this responsibility, as it is human nature to put your trust in the people that put things like this together. You can be sure that out of the 2000 taking part there would have been a lot of newbies with the opinion that if the organisers say it is OK to go ahead it must be within safe limits. When you are putting something like this together you have to look at the wider picture. As one guy has said the risk assessment for the organisers is far different from the individuals and should take into account consequences such as you are seeing now. This is not about individual ego\'s and how great you are that you managed to finnish, it is about the very future of regulation within your sport now. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| contact |
Having had v little useful information from anyone as to the whereabouts of my wife and partner here are some useful contaact numbers. police contact number 0845 3300247.
msot injured have been taken to the west cumbria hospital in Whitehaven, sorry cant find that number; some to keswick 01768767000; some to Cockermouth 01900 822226.
glad to hear that numbers unaccounted for are dropping. appreciate that the sysytems must be nuts but reporting of who has made it back somewhere on the website would have been very useful for the relatives at home. Many thanks for the mountain rescue people who helped my wife and partner back to the start line
Phil Thomas , aberystwyth |
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phil thomas
Please Select
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Trolls, memories, gear and experience. |
Firstly, Steven from Ayrshire is almost certainly a Troll. Don\'t feed the Troll!!
I marshalled the Saunders for a few years and remember conditions similar to yesterday one Friday evening, going up Kirkstone Beck from the Brotherswater Inn to my marshalling point (MP) at the the small tarn near Bakestones Moss.
I remember thinking to myself \"What am I doing? The bloody race will be called of if this persists!\"
I got to my MP, pitched the tent, got some kip. In the morning the storm had abated, thankfully and the race went ahead and I managed to dry my kit. This was over 20 years ago. Kit was not as advanced as it is today and high tech gear was out of my financial reach.
There is a minimum requirement, gearwise, for competitors in this sort of event. Most will be seasoned outdoors people, with more than enough experience to cope.
The nanny-state mentality has kicked in, with the media sensationalising as per usual! |
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Charnwood Fox
Leicestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Apology |
I\'d like to offer an apology to Steven, seeing as he has had the good grace to apologise for his earlier outburst. |
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Charnwood Fox
Leicestershire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Gill |
You say Steven that the vast majority couldnt cope and finish the course - when in fact they have all coped adequately well by carrying the correct equipment and deciding not to carry on - no-one finished the race because all had another day to go anyway.
One thing very noticeable on the news reports is everyone is smiling and laughing and I wish I had been there to experience it.
Worried wives??? what about worried husbands - there is a high % of girls in this event and some a lot quicker than the majority of the men.
I went down my local last night and have had to defend the event to people that have probably never been up a mou ntain let alone burnt a calorie - the news has managed to sensationalise it to the point where I am dreading going training this afto.
All I can say is its what we do rain or shine and its personal choice and yes I was at Blue Eskimo 2001 and we were a lead team who pulled back there but have been in worse conditions since then.
Wind your necks in :0) Happy runnin XX |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Where would more controls lead us? |
If these events lead to an imposition of nanny-state pampering the next time the event is run it would inevitably in its demise. People need to be able to challenge themselves and it is worrying to think of us heading towards a situation where no-one is allowed to walk in the hills in the rain unless they have completed the government sponsored course in \'How to stay dry\'. Everyone must take responsibility for what they do and when they do it and not rely on organisers or government to provide validation. As soon as that responsibility moves from the individual to someone else then you allow litigation culture to enter what should be something done for fun. |
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KP Hawk
Somerset
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM Reporting |
The Original Mountain Marathon is not the London Marathon, nor is it the Great North Run.
It is a Two Day Mountain Marathon where athletes test themselves, not just agaisnt the clock. I suspect the level of preparation per athlete is in way in excess of most of those running \'London\'.
How many people have died in road races this year compared to mountain marathons.... |
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 Stuart Hale
Lincolnshire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Media |
The publicity is gonna make this event bigger I reckon - the news said this was their main story which tells me they havent got to much to report on at the mo and that the Presidential elections are far less exciting - we have even knocked horrid football down in the ratings hooray!!
When you fill in the entry form you have to list your relevant experience - if this moves up to actual signed proof well - I dont think people will be fussed - its an event that will only benefit from this press and we will hear about it for years to come ! |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Long may OMM continue |
Oops - sorry if it came across as there aren\'t worried husbands. Just meant that the reports I\'d read, I had only seen comments from wives and none from husbands at that time, so couldn\'t honestly put both (does this mean that the women are more competent than the men then?).
This is an interesting read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm.
Well done to all those who entered and to those who made judgement calls not to continue - we all know how hard a decision that can be! As long as everyone gets back safe and sound that is the main thing. And of course, thanks, as usual to the rescue services who make themselves available should something go wrong.
Hopefully everyone will be accounted for shortly and the pubs will be full of stories! |
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Mike Hunting
Greater Manchester
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Further thoughts |
Jon Brooke: \"Steven, I don\'t know where you\'re getting your information from - I suspect out of your head, as the BBC report specifically said that there were no helicopters involved.\"
Only because it was too windy for them to take off last night.
But the police and RAF helicopters are out now, looking for the 40 odd people still unaccounted for on the fells. And if any of those people are not lost but have simply \"gone home\" without confirming that they are safe, that is even more irresponsible.
When the total cost of this fiasco is added up, I wonder if the bill for the efforts of all agencies involved will be sent to the organisers? In today\'s culture, I imagine they must have some sort of public liability insurance cover - I suspect next year\'s premium will be hiked up a bit, or come with a number of conditions attached as to calling off the event in adverse weather.
Looking at the video clips on the BBC website this morning, it is simply astonishing that people who plainly should know better were out in such conditions and putting themselves and others in danger. |
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Bob Sykes
Lancashire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Re:Further Thoughts |
Bob, the videos do show how bad the conditions were but they were taken hours after the start and just serve to show how quickly flash-flood conditions can change a situation and how justified was the decision to abort the competition. |
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KP Hawk
Somerset
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| angusmunros |
Wow, OMM cancelled, I\'m still in shock! Having competed 5 times over the years in this event in all sorts of conditions. I was out for a run round the streets yesterday with my 13 and 10 year olds and yes it was wet and windy but it wasn\'t cold, which always helps! Only later that evening did it occur to me that things would be interesting for the competitors and i checked out the website to see the news! I guess that the right decision was taken but i can also understand the disappointment of some competitors. The whole point of this event IS the challenge! Everyone there understands the risks and as i see it they did what would be expected of them given the conditions, ie;- continue/retire/bivvy out etc depending on their specific situation in order to ensure their safe return at some stage. Lets remember those still on the hill may not even know it\'s been cancelled and im sure will make their way back when it\'s safe and sensible to do so. |
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 phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Some Basic Info |
I\'ve completed 15-20 of these OMM events since my first in 1977 and many of those took place in very wet & windy weather. I well remember events in Dumfries & Galloway and The Howgills when the rain was relentless. The following facts about this event should be born in mind :-
1) All entants compete in pairs and must have past experience. 2) They do so willingly and at their own risk, to test themselves against the course, the elements on the day and their fellow competitors. 3)Each pair carry a tent, sleeping bags, food, fuel and cooker. 4)This is a 2 day event, so camping out on the course overnight is an intended part of the challenge. 5)As stated earlier, the Mountain Rescue teams are largely manned by Fell Runners and Mountaineers, These teams were originally formed (and continue) to support fellow mountaineers and outdoor sports on the hills. They spend most of their time giving assistance to ill-equipped and inexperienced walkers from the cities. |
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Mike Langrish
Warwickshire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Out of his depth. |
Steve Peel of Ayrshire said, \"Once this dies down you can guarantee that HSE will be all over you like a plague and that next years event will be so heavily regulated that you will not be able to see the course for all the saint johns ambulance men lining the route.\"
B******t,under present legislation the HSE has no brief or jurisdiction in this matter, as for what follows the quoted pasage, it is all dross. You must be a troll. |
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Malcolm Evans
Glamorgan
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| According to BBC |
All now accounted for. Great news.
Lots of stories to tell I\'m sure. We had great run and were happy through tough conditions. Of course, not all will have enjoyed it, but look at the number of smiling faces on the videos and they tell their own story. |
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 John Laughlin
Lanarkshire
uk |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Regulation |
No 1, i am not a troll, unless your idea of opinion follows the route that yours is the only one and anyone that disagrees is therefore a troll. If you are going to comment on Jurisdiction, and live in a world where you think that 2000 people can just set off through a national park without having to gain any formal sign off from a host of authorities you must be living in planet lala land. Before this event can take place permission must sought from a number of government agencies not least the owners of national park. EG the GOVERMENT. There has now been at least one serious injury sustained that was it seems very close to loss of life. If you really think that the insurance companies that no doubt had to put in place indemnity cover for this event and the national trust that gave permission for the run to go ahead on there land will not impose conditions for any further events following the mass of publicity is has gained, then you are sadly mistaken. As for the HSE not going to be involved, who exactly do you think the government controlled national trust will consult on safety provision prior to permission being given for any other such events. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OOOO.. |
Watch yer blood pressure !! |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Real danger / perceived danger |
Bob Sykes says \"When the total cost of this fiasco is added up, I wonder if the bill for the efforts of all agencies involved will be sent to the organisers?\"
I wonder whether the bill for the efforts of the agencies involved in sorting out road traffic accidents should be sent to the drivers involved? Because one thing\'s for sure - the most dangerous part of this weekend for the vast majority of people who were up in the hills in the Lakes will be driving home back down the M6.
Whatever trouble some locals might be trying to stir up (I have to wonder whether the manager of the slate mine didn\'t want the event held there in the first place), I\'m sure the vast majority of the people involved in any \"rescue effort\" are not particularly upset with the situation. The helicopter crews will for instance be treating it as a training exercise. Meanwhile I\'m sure they\'re glad that the people out there are so much better prepared than the average person they get called out to rescue. |
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 Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Publicity |
I\'d hope that most of the people involved in granting permission for such events will be slightly better informed than it\'s possible to be just from following reports in the media (who largely don\'t actually understand the event at all). I\'ve not seen one mention of the fact that the event\'s been running for 40 years through some previous atrocious weather. I think the fact that many 10s of thousands of people have gone up into the hills without one major casualty over that time speaks for itself regarding the event safety record. |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| A non racer view |
What is this with all the hyped up angst going on. I am a road runner, dont get involved in adventure races but know loads who do and they are all quite clued up on equipment and survival skills for just this very sort of situation, and they revel in the weather being on the more inclement side as it tests their navigation and other skills to the limit, just the reason most people seem to take part in these events. Fog, Rain, snow all are to be challenged.
As for the Health and Saftey aspect sadly it is the state of the country at the moment that we cannot sneeze without being asked to go into quarantine for a month. As a road runner I know of the cumbersome form filling needed in order to stage an event which is making it impossible for road races to continue being staged, except large ones where cost is no object, so the future will rely heavily on races going off road and into the parkland areas. To try and make everything H&S conscious is like wrapping a baby in cotton wool and not allowing it out of the house until it turns 21. This is real life with intelligent adults taking part, they have to be given some responsibility for their own actions.
I\'d like to know how the rescue services got involved, because the competitors arent allowed communication equipment (or so I have been told - maybe just then for emergency use) but one or two incidents does not a major disaster make. And one uninformed person suspecting that people MIGHT get into trouble doesnt make it so. I should think for the majority the biggest trouble they got into was in trying to get their car away from the car park.
In my opinion the media have a lot to answer for with regard to reporting of many inaccuracies etc over these kind of events.
I dont advocate taking part if the danger far outweighs the benefits, but this does not appear to be the case here. Or am I missing the point of why people like to get involved with the OMM. As for next year, well interestingly I\'d like to have a go as a novice, so off to get some orienteering training :-) |
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Sue Tizard
Hampshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Steven Peel |
Steven
It would be good if you could state your experience of such events and level of knowledge of the actual event.
Have you done anything like this.
I would be very interested to know. |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| road dangers |
I think you will find that the bill for road safety is already picked up by the people that pay a great deal of money to use them. But this has always been a silly argument, if you take this route to its ultimate conclusion you will then be forced accept that our leisure pursuits should be subject to a form of legislation and tax every time we participate in them, as the roads and the streets are. The authorities at present trust that event organisers will put in place all appropriate safety procedures to ensure that no such crisis such as this one is initiated. In this case the organisers failed. This then gives the authorities free hand to intervene and impose forced regulation. I am, buy the way, in no way against this event and agree that the competitors are extremely well equipped and on the whole qualified to participate and complete this type of challenge and have no desire to see further regulation and the nanny state taking over, but in this instance it turned into what will be perceived as a very well publicised disaster that could have been avoided had the organisers headed condition warnings thus giving the do gooders a free hand. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Disaster |
Steven
Please define this....
What I see (I was at the event) is a Media hype.
I would love to quote you above.
\"torrential rain and freezing conditions while three search and rescue helicopters at 10,000 pounds an hour of taxpayers money,along with countless police and emergency services are all looking for a bunch of idiots\"
\"Aside from the cost of staging a full blown major incident, whereby every off duty police officer, doctor, fireman ect are called out\"
Can you please justify these statements...
I think you will find that the number of missing people camped out over night was not the 1700 quoted on the news this morning.
I would prefer if everyone quantified their facts before opening an badly informed opinion on something they know about.
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Silly argument |
\"I think you will find that the bill for road safety is already picked up by the people that pay a great deal of money to use them. But this has always been a silly argument, if you take this route to its ultimate conclusion you will then be forced accept that our leisure pursuits should be subject to a form of legislation and tax every time we participate in them, as the roads and the streets are.\"
Mountain rescue teams are largely funded by donations from people who go into the hills, so to a large extent this is already the case in the same way as the roads. Though it\'s only really a silly argument because road users don\'t pick up the bill for policing etc. - it comes out of general taxation.
You\'re only right regarding the perception as driven by the media - as I said before, the people who have actually been involved should know a lot better (the interview I saw with the guy in charge of the \"rescue\" suggests this is the case - he was doing a good job in deflecting all questions about them being ireesponsible). I\'m reasonably confident the whole thing will turn out to be a storm in a teacup on a slow news weekend - particularly given everybody is off safely, which is more than can be said for lots of other organised events. |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Calm down boys |
Hmmmmmm, think we are going to end up going round in circles with this one, but I agree with one thing.
It is the DoGooders sticking their noses in that makes the problems, not the organisers. The weather is bad most years at this time and the races have still continued without mishap. A weather warning doesnt always mean it will come to fruition. The organisers cant put H&S things in it is a NATIONAL PARK, otherwise they\'d have to put notices all over the hills says danger slippery slope, or rocks ahead or whatever people need to be told who have no intelligence of their own. The people who take part in these things know what they are in for. The only reason they camped in the school, mine etc was because they had already been told it was over, i wonder how many would have ppreferred to be out in the racing and finishing day 2. |
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Sue Tizard
Hampshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| My thoughts |
I disagree with many of the things Steven Peel has said but he is right about one thing. The public reaction will not be good for the event.
The wider public reaction will be fuelled by inaccurate, sensationalist reporting, but that\'s to be expected from the modern media. As we were driving out this morning I observed two tv cars trying to get into Borrowdale. When they get there they will see lots of slightly weather-beaten people (mostly smiling), most of the cars already extracted from the car parking field (by the competitors - the tractors were just arriving as we left) and one partially collapsed marquee. My bet\'s on the marquee getting top billing.
As for the event itself, risk can be mitigated by appropriate actions. We had seen the weather forecasts and packed accordingly. We got the weather we were expecting and as a consequence, throughout our 6 hours on the long score we were warm and moving well apart from the occasional need to brace ourselves against some of the more extreme gusts.
As I write, the latest reports are 12 being treated for hypothermia or injuries and 3 unaccounted for. Conclusion - the vast majority also coped with the conditions either by completing the course safely or retiring because their own risk assessment was that it was more challenging than they were prepared for.
Did we put ourself in a dangerous situation? That\'s a perception call and I can see why some would argue that we did. It comes down to experience and preparedness. While I accept that there was an increased risk compared with being out on the hills in benign conditions, personally, I\'ve felt in more danger riding home from work on my bike in Winter. If we had felt that we were even approaching unmanageable risks then we would have been off of those hills very quickly. We were well within our own perceived safety margins throughout. |
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 Eddie Winslow
West Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Experience |
Anthony, as stated before I am not a fell runner, fell walking on a nice afternoon is more of my thing. I am a yachtsman and therefore have a fairly good understanding of assessing risk prior to undertaking my sport, which before anyone comments is no doubt far more hazard filed than your own. I do though understand as per my last post that the vast majority of you guys are very well qualified to take part in this type of sport. That though is not the issue here, the issue is the level of risk assessment at which a decision is taken to cancel. This is where this one went very wrong. To set of in these conditions was fool hardy and could have resulted in far more serious consequences. As a yachtsman it is always safety first and no.1 consideration in this is the weather forecast. Really windy and rough is great, force 9 storm and high seas is suicide. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Different strokes |
You have still not justified your statements. |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Conditions |
\"To set of in these conditions was fool hardy and could have resulted in far more serious consequences.\"
Ah well, now I understand the issue. They also showed footage of the start on the news. Conditions then were far from the same as later - lots of wind, but nothing particularly unusual or unsafe (I imagine it\'s the wind which would have resulted in boats not going out as you mentioned earlier, but it\'s not necessarily an issue on the hills). The rain only came later - and from my understanding, whilst it was forecast, I don\'t believe the quantity that arrived (which caused the flooding and hence \"problems\") was. When conditions got unsafe they made the correct decision then to stop. |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Phew! |
Bob Sykes You said \"\" Jon Brooke: \"Steven, I don\'t know where you\'re getting your information from - I suspect out of your head, as the BBC report specifically said that there were no helicopters involved.\"
Only because it was too windy for them to take off last night. \"\"
That\'s right, it was too windy for them to take off. I think you miss my point. As part of his rant Steven said 3 helicopters had been called out. I was pointing out that he was wrong, which caused me to question the rest of what he said.
Anyway, all accounted for now, so that\'s OK.
BTW Steven, it\'s not like sailing. In sailing you get incidents like Fastnet.
Also, Jim, I don\'t think you can say that in ghindsight it was a mistake to start the race. That implies that the organising team *knew* what was going to happen with the weather, which of course they didn\'t. They had a forecast of bad weather, but it\'s not an exact science. In fact I\'d suggest that if anything, the fact that all are now accounted for shows that *in hindsight* it was right to start the race. Don\'t forget that it is pretty much normal for half the starters not to complete. If you turned it into a noddy event where everyone could get around then it wouldn\'t be the OMM |
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Jon Brooke
Buckinghamshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| For what it is worth ... |
First the good news - it appears everyone is accounted for a safe !
Stating the obvious ...every competitor had access to the forecast before the started and had many opportunities to drop down to lower ground and safety when they chose to. We finished day one wet and a bit on the cold side but got into warm clothes, had hot drinks and ate a meal before a fairly comfortable night. We then walked out to the event HQ this morning.
I really hope this year does not impact badly on the OMM and the event continues.
One rant though ...I am very sore at the poor and inaccurate reporting in the \"mainstream\" media and for the worry that caused family and friends.
Steven - stop embarrassing yourself and shut the f@ck up ! |
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 Graham Kelly
Strathclyde
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
I could get a bit of stick for this but here goes.....just posted this on the omm furum too. I am cumbrian born and bred. Fell running and racing is in my families blood. My father started some well known fell races....back in the day when females didn\'t even enter!!! My family has also been involved with mountain rescue for many years. I am an outdoor instructor. So there is a bit of my history! Firstly, I am glad no one has been hurt and all have been found.
1. mountain rescue members are voluntary and wouldn\'t be there if they didn\'t want to be. They deserve a medal though....and more. Certainly more funding! I\'m sure the mountain rescue get more pissed off with tourists phoning them from their mobile because they are lost and wandering around the hills with sandels on!!
2. event was right to go ahead and anyone who has read the entry rules will understand why it did.....i suggest people read them before making comments. The event has an evacuation plan.
3. media and certain locals have made a massive thing out of this for personal advertising and a story to repot on because there is nothing else to repot on.
4. if the event had not have been cancelled, competitors would have pulled out anyway and those that did actually make it to the overnight camp would have i\'m sure been able to carry on today.
5. the event has been running for many years with very experienced organisers. They shorted the courses considerably. this event is different from your marathons / triathlons etc.... its about team work, preparation, correct clothing, route planning, experience on the fells and correct feeding.
6. you can fall over in the street and crack your head open......just think of all the drunken idiots in cumbria that take up valuable police time and money.
as i am local and know what the weather does in the lakes and the terrain...would i have cancelled??? ....NO......this is what fell racers live for.....extreem conditions. Just look at how many people are smiling on the video footage! |
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heather meek
Westmorland
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| statments |
Thats because I was only just answering your first mail about qualifications, not that great at typing. most of my info was taken from BBC and other sources, I know for example that cumbria has access to three heli crews from various stations, in the event of a major incident being declared as was the case here all emergency services are called in to cover worst case scenario. This was the case last night as a major incident was declared. Therefor all heli, medical, and emergency crews would have been scrambled that cover that area. I believe at least one bird was in the air as soon as conditions permitted but the other if not in the air would have been on standby to relieve/support the in air bird. As stated in an earlier post my experience in this area is extensive and I know the procedures. Not claiming to know all the facts (as you say I was not there) but do know the procedures. But please remeber, The vast majority of the nation where not there either but will judge on what the press tell them. |
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steven peel
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Well Said |
Hi Heather
I for one applaud the common sense of someone who knows about these things an not just falling prey to the media hype for whatever reason.
As i suggested before, left to their own devices and with no reporting etc, I suspect many would have been happy to finish day 2 and wonder what the fuss would have been about? Long live free spirit. As far as I can see the only big problem would have been finding an unswamped spot to pitch the tent overnight :-)
Myself I may stick to the road races, but I think that Eddie is wrong in agreeing about the future of the race and the publicity. I think it will bring it to the attention of a lot more people who will be interested and watch out next year the organisers may just have to increase their entry capacity |
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Sue Tizard
Hampshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Greg |
0207 585 4464 or email news@sky.com
And that is why you should all call greg at sky and put the news straight.
The news came from the Press association and the BBc took this up and it was in fact wrong!
Guess what the media get it wrong too. |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Reporting |
\"But please remeber, The vast majority of the nation where not there either but will judge on what the press tell them.\"
Exactly. And some like you might follow links and make their way here (or to the OMM forum - well worth a visit too). Which is why those of us here are busy trying to put the facts straight and give a sensible perspective on it.
I should point out that I am also only commenting from my armchair - I wasn\'t out yesterday. Though hopefully as somebody who has actually competed in these things I have a rather better understanding than most watching the media (my most extreme experience was the Polaris Challenge in the Yorkshire Dales a few years ago when the wind was so strong I had to walk with my bike on flat tarmac at points and the event was cancelled at the overnight camp) |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Next year... |
Is there now a higher chance of there being a significant accident next year, given that the media attention may attract all kinds of folks that don\'t have the experience to deal with similar conditions? |
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Mike Hunting
Greater Manchester
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Re: Experience From Steven Peel |
Steven, you say you are a sailor, so you will no doubt remember the Fasnet yacht race of some years ago when many yachts were dismasted, some sank and some sailors were drowned. But then you claim that sailing events are always \"safety first\". That event took place in spite of forecasts of bad weather.
I would like to thank Jen Longbottom and the OMM team for staging this and the previous 41 events. Long may they continue, inspite of silly comments by Steven Peel and co. Lets hope he stays looking at his boat from a safe distance and well away from the hills. |
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Mike Langrish
Warwickshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| In reply to Sue |
In reply to Sue Tizard. I have no doubt that the publicity will do wonders for the level of interest in the race and ensure a full entry list next year. In it\'s early years the race was struggling to attract sufficient entries to keep it going. There was then a year of really bad weather and word of mouth about that year has meant that the race has never had a problem since.
My concerns are two-fold.
Firstly, it will attract people with less experience. No harm in itself as the mix of courses caters for the range of experience. But a general reduction in experience levels will increase the risk of a serious incident.
Secondly, watch the price of public liability cover for this event go through the roof. Insurance companies are looking for ways to boost their margins and here\'s a superb increase in perceived risk. At what point does the price of entry start deterring entries - clearly not current levels but there will be a point. |
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Eddie Winslow
West Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Agreed |
Hi Eddie
Unfortunately the society we live in means that your thoughts may very well be the case. But you are anticipating things for the future that may or may not happen, in the 40 years of running this event, the organisers seem to have a formula that filters out the really inexperienced potential hazard people, or maybe they are the ones that dont make the end and give up, I dont know. I have no experience of Adventure Racing, but could get interested, but I thought there were requirments for certain things before being allowed to do the really difficult stuff. Maybe they could start a \"junior OMM\" for novices only and have B&Bs and nice warm slippers waiting for us in the evening :-), but seriously.... at present I will stick with fighting the traffic on the roads where most races I do are run. A far more dangerous sport and for which we have to pay the police quite a substantial amount for them to attend. Even then most road race entries require you to sign away your right to sue in the event of accidents etc...... something i believe isnt actually worth the paper it is written on.
In the end the cost of any insurance increase will surely be passed on, ultimately to the competitor, but will that deter people? I doubt that very much. |
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Sue Tizard
Hampshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| A view from Keswick |
AN old Japanese saying says that the in the West they fix the blame in the east we fix the problem ! lets stop pinning tails on donkeys and try and get some positives out of the situation.
Having spent the last 24 hours with Mountain rescue, local police and fire officers they are very happy with what heppened. With the threat of flooding in the towns making decisions between committing rescources to the OMM or the people of flooded houses is not one that anyone would want them to make.
There were clearly mistakes but what is emerging from talking with the various response teams is that the lack of a decent communications system was one the big errors. In previous forms the event was manned by the Army Signals who had good communications between check points and who\'s logging of people going through check points was superb. It is clear that this was a very weak area on this event and should be addressed before next year.
To be clear Keswick welcomes adventure activities but there is an onus on event organisors to ensure the very best standards are in place the same as they have to be for example with the Outdoor Centres. No we dont want a nanny state and therefore organisors have to appreciate that poor organisation will lead to the sort of media frenzy we are seeing and then to regulation.
In the calm of the next few montsh I can only hope that the Orgisors meet swith the response services and work out how things can be improved so that future events can go ahead and, hopefully with a greater safety net encourage more people to give it a try. |
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david etherden
Cumberland
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Wow |
What a wonderfully balanced post David - thank you. Nice to hear that as I suspected the emergency services aren\'t as worked up and upset by this as some want to make out. Now could you go over to the OMM forum and put them straight over there! |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Thanks |
:-) |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Rob Howard |
Thanks for putting it all straight in your Last report.
You are a hero for accurate journalism.
Well done |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Accurate Journalism |
\"You are a hero for accurate journalism.\"
That\'s presumably why he\'s stuck here writing for an AR website rather than working for a national paper or the TV? :-) |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Stuck!\" |
I believe he has been there done that.
I think I know where I would like to be. As shown by this and many forums, amongst people that like adventure.
Great effort Rob. |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
This weekend we did the Medium score OMM and got to the overnight camp with 10 minutes to spare. We had to cut our route short when the wind got up. We put the tent up and then were told the event was off. Pitty, we thought we had done quite well. So we flogged our way back over Honister Pass to the start, and slept in the car.Both our crossings of Honister were fantastic, although hairy, experiences which I wouldn\'t have missed for the world. The ammount of water comming off the fells had to be seen to be believed, and I have seen some wet days in the lakes. The wind was way beyond anything I have ever experienced before and I did do the karrimor in Galloway 86 and the Howgills. Now back in the comfort of my home I see that the media have got hold of a story about large numbers of people being unaccountd for in the fells. Is this news? It happens every year on the OMM. No one knows where the people who did not make the camp site are untill about 4PM Sunday which is when people start to worry. In view of the fantastic weather I am sure that there are more than usual out there, but there is really no need to worry yet. I recently read in the press how much I earn in a year. Sadly like the numbers missing on the fells the figure was massively exagerated. |
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Andy Hicks
Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr |
Nice to have the input of arrogant outsiders who obviously know nothing.
Boy at times like this I have really missed marshalling AR\'s.
2500 people and a dozen needed to talk to the medics! FFS I wonder how that compares with spectators at a footie match.
I knew there would bre no rela isses |
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Graham Graham
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Stephen Peel |
I suggest Stephen that you go back to writing petty letters to yachting monthly and stop P@*sing people off on a forum you clearly have no reason to be on !
|
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 Phil Robinson
Renfrewshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM again |
Another great event - my 9th, Howgills was my first. Next year will be really oversubscribed now so Jen can I get my entry in now please? |
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 Colin Matheson
Northumberland
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| just the facts |
Wow, longest post I\'ve seen on Sleepmonsters
Just goes people shouldn\'t rely on the media to get their facts prior to posting obnoxious and insulting mails. Media men never let truth get in the way of a story. Steven Peel can\'t justify his outrageous initial comments because he now realises he\'s been sucked in by the media hype but at least he had the sense throw his spade away!
I suspect the outcome will be that organisers will say that some mistakes were made but that events were in their control given the atrocious circumstances. Learn from it and move on. The other consequence will be a huge oversubscription for next year\'s event.
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 paul firth
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| My take on the event - with video |
This is a case of personal responsibility, and the OMM requires that you take personal responsibilty for your safety while out on the course. The conditions were bad, but not a whole lot worse than the last time I did it in 2005. Unfortunately this kind of negative press does no-one any favours - I have seen it before, and it is not in the interests of the press to report the facts if it gets in the way of a good story. Hopefully the OMM will continue for may years to come, with an excellent safety record. The demise of such events will not reduce the number of callouts the emergency services have to attend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSUu-vG1rlQ |
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 Ed Legge
West Lothian/Linlithgowshire
UK |
| |
| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Gary Davies |
I am relatively new to Mountain Marathons but have plenty of hill-walking experience. I therefore knew what clothes and kit to take based on the weather forecast. In the 6 and half hours that my partner and I were out in the hills we were always comfortable. We took too much food but at least we erred on the side of caution.
I was absolutely \'gutted\' when the marshall at the Final Day 1 CP informed us it had been cancelled. My partner and I really enjoyed all the tests that the event put us through. We were sensible throughout and used our judgement to determine route choice and and pace. We were looking forward to Day 2 too!
I diasgree with most of the things that Steven Peel has stated on this forum but my response would be the same as what some of the other people have said.
The weather was dry and calm when we started at 0819 and was the same for the next 1-2 hours. Those that started later were less fortunate! It turns out that a month\'s rain fell in 24 hours according to the news! How could any weather forecast predict that?
Some more experienced participants said that the weather coditions were no worse than some other past OMMs and couldn\'t understand the hype.
When I got back to Keswick and got a mobile signal I was inundated with text and voicemail messages from worried friends and family. This was all created by the sensationalism in the media.
I have seen TV reports on BBC1 and ITV which were in direct contrast. BBC1\'s report came across with Jen Longbottom defending the OMM and stating that the competitors were experienced men and women who knew what they were puting themselves in for. BBC also interviewed some happy smiley competitors.
ITV\'s reporting was in total contrast. They decided to record responses from inexperienced teams who stated that they were in grave danger.
Rob Howard\'s reporting however was spot-on as usual.
Personally I think that all this is a storm in a tea cup and the OMM will continue to prosper. |
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 Gary Davies
Glamorgan
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| \'Alive\' on TV |
For those of you that love mountains and tales of people working together in difficult conditions turn over to Channel 5! |
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Gary Davies
Glamorgan
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Steven Peel |
says \"Really windy and rough is great, force 9 storm and high seas is suicide.\"
Not true: a well-found vessel with a competent crew and sea-room is safe. Probably uncomfortable, but safe. |
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Bob Sloan
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Simon |
My daughter took part in the OMM for the first time this year.
I am really pleased with her. She and her partner had the sense to assess the situation for themselves and to retire from the race within the first two hours. Compare this to the behaviour of any other 19 yr old girls on ny cctv cop show on daytime tv. I fell honoured to have any part in the upbringing of such a capable and competent person. Part of my professional role is one of educational visits coordinator. part of this is ongoing risk assessment. She did this perfectly. As I understand it so did 2 500 other competitors. What a fantastic surge of common sense.
Secondly, there were 2 500 people on the fells, well equippped, working their way between precise control points in a wild environment. THey are all safe. As a competitor in the relay in the JK this spring in a blizzard, I was overawed by the organisation then. I am blown away by the organisers in Borrowdale today. I would like to thank everyone involved in keeping my daughter safe, especially the organisers for the excellent planning.
I am only hoping that I migtht one day live up to her example one day! or am I too old?
Simon |
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Simon Virgo
Please Select
Please Select |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| Age |
You\'re (almost) never too old, Simon. I don\'t have at my fingertips the age of the oldest people taking part in OMM, but they\'re almost certainly much older than you. |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM |
I am a sailor.
An Orienteer
A Fell Runner.
In fact I was thinking of returning to the OMM this year, but I was planning an orienteering event at 459 m above sea level, I was putting out control markers in the same weather on Saturday. My event went ahead with some 300+ competitors including some OMM competitors!
Regarding sailing, I would never take my boat out in that sort of weather, I couldn\'t handle it, I\'m not experienced enough!
Fell running in shorts and singlet, no one would, remember the Edale skyline a couple of years back?
Orienteer? We made everyone carry a cagoule and compass.
Mountain Maroathon? If I had all the equipment I was supposed to have as I did in the Howgills in 98 I would have started, but probably bailed out if I felt it dangerous, this is what I did at the Howgills. It is al a matter of knowing your ability and limitations. A friend did the A class and completed it unscathed. He was most annoyed to be toled to go over the Honister pass back to the event centre another 5 miles!
If people where in danger then they were not equiped well enough, mentally, physically and equipimentaly! |
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Edward Graham
Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| storm? |
Beafort Force 9 isn\'t a storm, I think it\'s 10/11. Check this link for an excellent article on how to deal with dodgy conditions as a sailor... http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/HeavyWeather.pdf. Every sport has it\'s experts ;-) |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 26. Oct, 2008 |
| spolling |
oops, beaufort... |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| different perspectives |
Steven Peel and others are offering different perspectives and I notice that some Adventure Racers are giving them a really hard time. I\'m not sure how throwing insults and moving off the subject (eg traffic accidents) are helping in us thinking through the wider implications for the OMM and other races.
Steven raises a key issue about the future of the race which is worthy of discussion. The media frenzy, inaccurate as it was, may change the race. Organisations are very wary of bad publicity and public opinion. And these factors may influence decision-making.
How might our sport be influenced, positively and negatively influenced by this publicity?
And how can we work with the media and other agencies to mimimise any potential negative impact of this weekend? |
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 Karen Hanson
London
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Send me some pics please! |
I\'m trying to write a balanced article for my local paper to help promote the OMM and our sport. I didn\'t take a camera (for obvious reasons) but someone must have some good pics that they will give permission for me to use with the article
Please send them to s_epstein \"at\" hotmail.com
Thanks in advance |
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 Steven Epstein
Powys
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Lets make the world a better place.... |
Steven Peel, titled his first posting \"Twats\"
Was that one of the key issues?
Sorry, his opinion is worth squat. |
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Jon Brooke
Buckinghamshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| BTW |
Now that the stock markets are open again, we are old news. The media are back to getting overexcited about a 5% drop in the Hang-Seng and other important stuff like that. |
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Jon Brooke
Buckinghamshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM 2008 - The Planners Route. |
Fortunately we kept a close eye on the mountain weather information service website last week. It said conditions at the weekend for the event would be \"...severe...\" and that walking would be \"...severly impeded...\", thats walking.
Anyone with any mountain experience would instantly click that they should stay at home. That compounded by Jen Longbottom\'s email late on Friday to say that the site was flooded and there was no drinking water.
And yet people still turned up and started the event.
There was only one thing extreme about this....EXTREME irresponsibility.
I cringed everytime a comparision was made between people with mountain experience and an OMM 2008 competitor was made in the media, cringed with shame.
I hope that the OMM will be making large donations to the local schools and the slate mine chap involved in putting people up.
We spent our time in a pub in Carlisle on Saturday cowering from the weather in a pub. You can imagine our shock when we watched the evening news...... High fiving, cigars and whisky all round.....good call. Once again we did the planners route perfectly. |
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Rob Pyle
Wiltshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Escape route |
In reply to Jim Godden. If I understand some of your posting correctly, you are thinking that certain participants continued with the event despite it being cancelled. I doubt it. When participants arrived at the Day 1 finish, they either chose or were directed over the Honister Pass tarmac road to return directly to the Day 1
start where there was considerably more facilities than at Day 1 finish - not least the participants cars and spare clothing etc (for the vast majority anyway).
The route over the pass was difficult because of high winds, but it was a robust solution for an escape route.
At that time it was possibly not realised that the day 1 start area had flooded out in certain places
and that the exit road was blocked by floods.
Later still, as rain and wind worsened, and landslips were occuring, the Honister pass was effectively closed to foot and car passage, by the MRT or Police I believe.
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 Gary Tompsett
Strathclyde
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| metro reporting |
Some berk in the Metro this morning reported that 1,700 marathon runners had been taken off the mountain by an RAF Rescue Helicopter. How can you compete against this kind of idiot?
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paul firth
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| choice |
Rob, everyone has a right to decide for themselves what they are prepared to deal with in terms of weather conditions. Some individuals may well and did have the skills and fitness levels to deal safely with the conditions and would in my humble opinion have completed their courses on Sunday given that opportunity. As for the chap at the slate mine he did a great job but I think that he\'ll do very well out of it without any donations. Check their website for some interesting reporting! :-) |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| disappeared |
hmm, looks like there\'s been some swift editing done....what was there yesterday has disappeared!!! |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Change of emphasis |
Now that really is quite a drastic change in tone from Mr Weir. Presumably he now feels he can\'t get any more free publicity and doesn\'t want to put off his customers now.
\"It is also important to point out that this was freak weather for the Lake District. The likes of which I have never known in 42 years.\" - when yesterday he was saying how it was all highly predictable and he knew it was coming. I\'ve a lot of respect for him for looking after all the people overnight, but he loses all of that and more for his obviously self-motivated quotes to the media. |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Radio 2 |
Hi all
Its about to be discussed by Jeremy Vine on his Radio 2 show, hope its nice and balanced. |
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Sue Tizard
Hampshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Jeremy Vine |
\"hope its nice and balanced.\" - I\'d be shocked if it was!
For what might be slightly better, the organisors are due to be commenting on R4 just after midday so I\'m told (not just the fact the organisors are on - also better journalism on that programme AFAIK, which is probably why they\'ve gone on there rather than elsewhere). |
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Chris McSweeny
Worcestershire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Slate Mine on BBC 2 |
How Mark Weir gets away with it is incredibe. Here\'s hoping the other side of things is well presented. |
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John Laughlin
Lanarkshire
uk |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Level of Risk? |
Some people need to realise that the risks being faced by thoroughly experienced, well equipped competitors in the conditions this weekend were considerably lower than the risks faced by the hundreds of tourists who can be found all over the same hills at other times who are totally unprepared for any change in conditions! |
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John Elvin
Sussex
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| mr weir |
Aparently theres a lovely slate mine we can all visit next time we goto the lakes, and we should all visit |
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Jon Forsyth
Somerset
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| H&S |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| H&S |
I guess Mr Weir may have a few H&S issues. I hope he is squeaky clean as god help him if he is not.... |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| personal responsibility |
I have read a lot of the forums over the last couple of days and have seen the same joe \"sit at home watching the x-factor\" public response to this as with many mountaineering, sailing etc rescues - irresponsible individuals putting their lives at risk wasting taxpayers money.
As an adventure racer and mountaineer for 20 years this argument has come up many times. The mountain rescue spend their time mostly rescuing inequipped and inexperiened. My uncle was leader of a MRT and actually argued for dispanding teams as people relied on them too much. We have voluntary teams and every time my friends were rescued we took beer and a donation along (btw there is a justgiving page for omm people to donate to the lakes mrt). No public cost there - I am sure many of us pop a couple of quid in collection tins as an \"insurance\" for future need.
Second helicopter rescue is there for armed forces rescue and is funded by the MOD as such. Instead of sending squaddies out onto the hills to be rescued they practice on real casualties. Therefore no cost to the public.
Finally, as a doctor I see the cost of mountaineering / running etc injuries to the NHS. On the whole this is relatively small. I seem to spend most of my days trying to get people to stop smoking, loose weight, eat less crap, and get off their arses. Funnily enough I don\'t treat many fit health active people. By taking part in AR and outdoor activities we are overall reducing the burdon on the NHS by keeping physically and mentally fit. I would much more happily treat an injured AR racer than someone who got drunk and into a fight on a Friday night - but I know who we see more of coming through the A&E doors wasting taxpayers money.....
Maybe you would argue going out on a Friday night that is their choice, they know the risks and the NHS should be there for them - like smokers with lung cancer and bronchitis and the obese with heart disease and diabetes. They are warned of the risks but do it anyway.
Perhaps the same is true of racers and mountaineers but with the bonus of keeping the person fit, healthy and hugely less likely to need the NHS - just look at the number of aged fellrunners out there.
So please do not tell us what we should and should not do - unfortunately I did not make the start line on Saturday due to my partner dropping out from injury - however I know I would have started and had a good day out pushing myself in bad conditions and felt more alive for it.
The number of casualties is incredibly low and minor - I heard of with more on summer MMs in good weather. People have taken personal responsibility for themselves, made a judgement call on their experience and the conditions and decide to race or not. The organisers have done a fantastic job of giving us a challenge and then some back up to make sure we finished / got off they hill OK. In the end it is our choice and we take responsibility. I dearly hope that H&S don\'t involved as a I fed up of joe public taking all the fun out of life.
Rant over
Happy running
Alistair |
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 Alistair Morris
Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Oversubscribed |
Well put Mr Morris!
And well put Rob Howard!
So who wnats to open the betting that the OMM is greatly oversubscribed next year?
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 John McBride
none
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Lets Hope So... |
Me!... last did it in 2003 but all my fond memories have been rekindled. BTW i remember the Howgills... not as bad as this year but still perfectly manageable at the time. My then girlfriend who was my partner is now my wife of some 20 years so i couldn\'t have scared her that much!!.. |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| 20.... |
..I\'ve been told it\'s only 15, just feels like 20.... |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Alistair\'s Injured Partner!! |
After having completed 10 KIMM/OMMs I was absolutely gutted to miss the race this year due to injury, delaying the final decision to withdraw until last Wednesday. Watching the BBC on Sunday only made me envious of those who made it onto the fells (though the flooded cars at the event centre didn\'t look like fun). I completed the Howgills race in 1998 and, though tough at the time, my partner and I came away with the most incredible feelings of satisfaction, confidence in our kit and ability and learned some tremendous lessons about ourselves and coping with some pretty grim conditions.
I have no doubts about the future of the event and will definately be there next year, regardless of conditions (if the publicity doesn\'t lead to me missing out on the lottery due to it being oversubscribed).
Rob\'s latest report on this site appears to be the most balanced and accurate so far published. Will someone forward this to the BBC....and if so will the BBC broadcast it. (I don\'t think so, it\'s nowhere near being sensational enough). |
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 Andy Scaife
Durham
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Alistair Morris |
I agree with all his comments. He turned up to my orienteering event BTW, that I mentioned earlier. If OMM is oversubscribed, there must be a very vigourous/rigourous vetting procedure! BUT perhaps steven peel
Ayrshire
UK would like to enter to see what all the fuss is about!? |
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Edward Graham
Yorkshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| playing cards |
Just read Rob Howards report.. excellent!! Really sorts out the fact from the fiction. Cards and G&T\'s at Black Sail..now thats one story I\'d love to tell my Grandchildren! |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| OMM Race Report |
Nice to hear some good, balanced and well informed reporting (i think for the first time).... trying to explain to some people that a choice is made to do a race like this is like trying to knock some common sense into a .... reporter! |
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Rich Wild
Lanarkshire
UK |
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| Posted 27. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Weir |
Just been reviewing the OMM site forum...Some first hand reports from competitors seem to point in one direction for the media hi-jack.... |
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phil smith
Ayrshire
UK |
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| Posted 28. Oct, 2008 |
| Yes - |
Yes, I\'d go as far as to say Mr Weir saw an opportunity for publicty for Honister.com
If you read Rob Howard\'s reporting it is clear that people should have been allowed to walk back to the event centre, and turned not back at Honister Pass.
Walking back to the event centre, as a \'bail-out plan\' is always part of your escape. The organisers know this, as do all participants. It was the intervention of external bodies who did not understand this or listen to us experienced competitors, who caused this drama.
Thank god for decent reporting by Rob who was there all weekend, and can keep it in perspective. Just for the record having finished Day One, I walked back to my van for around 4pm, and sat it out in two feet of water for a few hours. The water quickly receeded to allow us to sleep in it, but I was at the worst possible point for flooding and there was loads of relatively dry space at the event centre.
Re:Honister Slate Mine and Mr Weir, ask yourself, \'Why is the sign in Big Orange letters and not slate Grey?\'
He\'s a very skilled self publicity.
He\'s had Griff Rhys Jones there on TV, as well as \'Whinny and Trinny\' I believe.
He also falls foul of The Lake District National Parks requests compliance on a few issues, alledgedly.
A drama out of a difficult situation, and totallly unneccessary.
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 Joe Faulkner
Cumbria
UK |
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| Posted 28. Oct, 2008 |
| Mr Weir........ |
Having been lucky enough to have taken part in this years epic event - and loved every second of it, apart from the nonsense in the media, I can safely say the blame all lies with Mr Mark Weir. From what I understand he called the BBC and fed them nonsense in order to promoting himself and his tin pot mine. The conditions were tough but that\'s what we all signed up for and due to impossible camping conditions I think it was probably the right call to cancel. The amount of calls I had from concerned relatives (including my mum in the middle east) and friends was down to shabby reporting and sensationalist journalism which was all fed by Mark Weir. He caused a lot of problems but I think all the MRT\'s and local residents realise now it was down to him and I\'m sure his already dodgy reputation has now been completed destroyed.
But being an AD man, the PR for the event has been amazing - the amount of coverage it got would run into the millions if it was paid for advertising and all PR is good PR.
The most telling thing of the weekend was that when I came into the office on Monday - 4 lads said they were bang up for doing it next year (and no one has come up saying they were really interested in going to a slate mine!)
Hats off to Jen and Mike for 41 years service to a truly great event, long may it last and you will certainly see me there next year (I\'ll be getting my entry in early though).
ps. lots of good positive comments on this thread and well said Alistair Morris
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Nick Gracie
London
UK |
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| Posted 28. Oct, 2008 |
| Hitcher Hikers |
Nick
I was impressed with your hitch hiking skills and tenacity.
That poor asian (japanese?) driver now thinks that the way to get a lift in extreme circumstances is to put your hands together and bow.
Priceless!!! |
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Anthony Emmet
Hertfordshire
UK |
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| Posted 28. Oct, 2008 |
| Steven peel |
If the NT or the organisers of the OMM approached me for advice on their liabilities under H&S at work legislation, I would have to give them very limited advice to the effect that the activities they\'d be seeking advice about fall outside the scope of that legislation and the HSE remit. If however, they asked about public liability I would have to point them to a different authority altogether.
We could be called upon by courts to offer an opinion in such matters but that is all we would be entitled to offer, an opinion.
BTW, out of interest, what are your H&S credentials? |
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Malcolm Evans
Glamorgan
UK |
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| Posted 28. Oct, 2008 |
| A Fell Runners View of OMM |
An superbly put together point of view appeared in the Independent and is well worth a read.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-mountain-marathons-975372.html |
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KP Hawk
Somerset
UK |
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| Posted 28. Oct, 2008 |
| And from Sunny South Africa |
This has been the best read for Robyn and I in ages.. great to be reminded of the Uk weather!!.. I do miss it in a funny way!!
All I can say Live Life!!!!!
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 Cas van Aardenne
London
UK |
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| Posted 29. Oct, 2008 |
| H&S |
Unfortunately the media circus that got hold of the OMM stories is often the same mis-informed circus that perpetuates H&S stories in the press. As people have paid a fee - there is I understand a HSE or local authority interest. However, both HSE and local authorities apply principles of proportionality to enforcement and if suitable risk assessments etc were in place to cover such emergencies (as I\'m sure they would have been) there really shouldn\'t be much to worry about in terms of jeopardising future events. Both are only too aware of the media hype that the press often generate. |
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Nick ODonnell
Greater London
UK |
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| Posted 29. Oct, 2008 |
| H&S |
The HSE does indeed apply principles or, rather, the principle, of proportionality but only where and when a case falls within its remit and, obviously, where that is not the case it has no statutory role. Payment of fees, as in this case, does not automatically bring an event into its sphere of authority unless those fees are used wholly or partially as payment to individuals for their services to the event and then only in respect of the wellbeing of those same individuals as employees or contracted persons. |
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Malcolm Evans
Glamorgan
UK |
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